Su Temlett on Self-Directed Learning

We explore the developing discipline of self-directed learning, with our resident education expert Su Temlett answering questions about the role of teacher and student in a self-directed classroom, different instructional design models, and the vital importance of the right resources to make self-directed learning a reality.

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Simon Hennessy

Are you gonna teach us anything? What? You want me to teach you something? You want to learn something? Hello and welcome to Atomi Brainwaves. I'm your host, Simon and I'm joined today by Sue. What's up, Su?

Su Temlett

Morning, Simon.  

Simon Hennessy

I believe you're craving a bit of caffeine at the moment. Correct.  

Su Temlett

That's correct. Thank you for reminding me.  

Simon Hennessy

You're welcome. Just wanted a Make sure we started on that note. Okay, so we are recording here in the studio at Atomi HQ. Atomi is an online resource for second-level education, a platform used by students and teachers alike to help make education awesome and engaging. We provide content for schools and students in Australia on the UK in the form of short, digestible, syllabus specific videos and classroom activities. As such ours is a podcast about education for educators where we look at some key issues in the world of education. Today we're doing so with the help of our resident teaching expert, former head of English digital Learning leader for a curriculum and pedagogy and director of curriculum, Su. Thank you. You're very welcome on the menu for today we have got self-directed learning hot topic, definitely, some would say It's just teachers copping out, letting kids do all the work.

Su Temlett

I will argue against that during this podcast if it's done well then its definitely not teachers copping out.  

Simon Hennessy

Well, let's dive into it and let's talk a bit about the student's role first. I think we'll unpack both sides what it means for the student what it means for the teacher but I just want to dive first into how a self-directed student differs from, I guess, the more traditional understanding of a student.

Su Temlett

Yeah, well, a self-directed student typically would take more ownership of their own learning. So it's less of a sort of transmission style from the teacher at the front and just sort of soaking up knowledge or not. There's depending on how much they're focused on what the teachers saying, but it's more of actually having initiative and directing what they want to learn when they want to learn it, to some extent

Simon Hennessy

Dictating their learning as opposed to being dictated to them.

Su Temlett

Yeah absolutely. So it's them sort of selecting projects, maybe being offered choice, working through what materials they think are best in order to do that. So it's almost like a choose your own adventure story for kids in the classroom.

Simon Hennessy

I never loved those stories myself.

Su Temlett

I always died. No matter what happened I always ended up at page like 36 and always died

Simon Hennessy

Particularly grim, considering most of the stories that I did in that fashion didn't have a die option. So, I don't know how you managed.

Su Temlett

There was a crash in the mountain one and I always ended up crashing on the mountain. Page 36, could never get off it

Simon Hennessy

Well, hopefully for most students it's not a metaphorical crash in the mountain for there self-direction? Yes. And I guess the other key side to consider is the teacher and there's a phrase that I particularly enjoy the sage on the stage to the guide on the side. Yes. Now that I've dropped that very exciting phrase, why don't you explain what it actually means?

Simon Hennessy

Su Temlett

Su Temlett

Su Temlett

Su Temlett

So sage on the stage means sort of the expert on the stage, always being the one who is sort of fund of all knowledge. It's a very traditional style of teaching made for the sort of factory model of teaching of the 18th century died on the side is more what we're talking about with self-directed learning so you are facilitating learning your guiding what it is that they're exploring, so it's not offering sort of just absolutely freedom of choice. They've still got to cover a syllabus. They've still got to cover the content that is required there, they've still gotta past the HSC, obviously for New South Wales, but you're guiding them through elements of content. Now, a teacher's role in self-directed learning at RU is well not arguing, but it's huge. So it's what you said earlier about teachers sort of copping out.

Simon Hennessy

I was just kidding, I swear

Su Temlett

It is a prevailing attitude, and students as well can actually think that that's the case and parents, too. But what you don't see as much of in a self directed classroom is the teacher influence at the forefront. But what you're not aware of, like if you sort of view it like an iceberg, the teacher has done so much behind the scenes in a really good self-directed classroom to get the students to where they are and to offer the range of activities or the range of choice that you don't see up front in the classroom. But they've done hours and hours and hours of prep behind the scenes

Simon Hennessy

That kind of off-stage work.  

Su Temlett

Yeah, working out and I think they get better with time, but working out exactly what modules are going to work best. What choice is there going to work best, how they can best guide or steer students and then they also thinking on their feet a lot to, a student goes in this particular area of interest. So how are you going to support them, What have you got at your fingertips? You know what sort of things you've prepared in advance that you can then use to direct them down that path. So you're going to do a kind of more free for all. You have a lot of things that you disposal to do that. If you're going to do more of a structured, self-directed learning model, you'd be offering them different choices. But again, in the background, you've got all these resources at your fingertips to what choice it is that they make as in, like, the choose your own adventure kind of choices.

Simon Hennessy

I quite like what you said there about learning as you go. Right, Because if you think of that sage on the stage, old fashioned idea, if you're just getting up and presenting the same thing, even if it's good stuff, there's very little propensity to learn from it if you're just delivering the same particular speech that you've done for the last X years, whereas if it's more interactive, if your guide on the side who is more exposed to how the students are responding, you can sort of develop your approach as you go.

Su Temlett

Absolutely, and I think you get more of a partnership that so the teacher is from a teacher's point of view it can bring so many possibilities, your jobs nowhere near predictable in a sort of self-directed classroom because you're supporting the students as they choose a certain thing of interest and you can't necessarily discern what it is that's going to spark their interest. But if you do in the sort of more factory model, one size fits all, then you're choosing their interest for them essentially. But the self-directed model allows them to follow their areas of interest and you follow it with them. And so there are things that they might ask you questions, and you don't actually know the answer because they followed me. Yeah, well, it shouldn't be. But you're perfectly positioned to sayI'm not sure let's find that out together. And it's kind of that element of inquiry and of being comfortable to be in that guide, but not the fund of all knowledge and the sort of more traditional sense.

Simon Hennessy

I say it makes pretty interesting discoveries along the way. Yeah, about students about yourself, about the topic and question.

Su Temlett

Yeah, I think you get almost more close to a student because you sort of cancelling them as you go through the different pathways that they're choosing. It's still quite a juggling act for a teacher because you can't let them go totally off topic. For example, if you're still in an English classroom and you're doing a text, you've still got to cover that text even if they're doing it in a self directed way. You still got to get to kind of commonish end point, so it's quite a job allowing them freedom, but also make sure that you are covering the syllabus.

Simon Hennessy

True, but you get better at

Su Temlett

the more you do it.

Simon Hennessy

So let's bring the focus back to the students a little bit for a second, and I want to talk about the particular skills and abilities that a student can develop in a self-directed classroom that might not otherwise be available to them.

Su Temlett

Well, I think a lot of schools choose at least some elements of self directed from, say, a unit or return or some things like that, because they are fostering skills in students that will be useful for the workplace or for university. So more of the sort of soft skills or the 21st century competencies. So I think students in a self directed mode should show more independence. They should show a greater resilience, I think, because they've actually tested a few pathways and maybe found failure and been steered back or been talked through with the teacher a different way of doing it. So greater resilience. I think a student would have more initiative they'd be able to kind of think of, particularly in what interests them and then go from the next thing to the next thing. Sort of they're the trailblazers as such, and that's a skill that you want. That's just a skill that everybody wants really to have initiative. Employers definitely want it. And I think a student in a self-directed room would be more able to follow their passions and sort of go with, they might digress but they're following what it is that they're passionate about,

Simon Hennessy

Which is so important because it's the things that you enjoy? Yes, that you were going to give the most effort, too. If you can find a way to enjoy a subject that you thought you didn't like through a new method, it's going to change the whole.

Su Temlett

I think, that's not to detract from sometimes kids can't follow their passions. They do have to just learn this because it's part of the syllabus and its content you need to know

Simon Hennessy

What you're saying they can't have fun at all times?

Su Temlett

But, if you give them opportunities to follow their passions in some areas. Then it's like Google's 80 20 rule or like 20% of your time. You can do work that interests you like passion projects and that sort of stuff. I think then you're going to have a much more motivated student because there are times when they know that they can follow what's of interest to them in a guided way.

Simon Hennessy

Yes, they'll get through the more mundane stuff myself the stuff that doesn't appeal to them because they know that's not the entire story.

Su Temlett

That's not my entire life at school, you know? So I think that adds more motivation, hopefully, a sort of sense of drive. You know, I'd expect students to be more able to problem solve in a self-directed classroom and even within that problem, solving to actually have other people to call on. So there's a phrase already, like when teaching in a blended environment, which is three before me so before you come to the teacher, have you done three other ways of trying to solve your problem? Your question? So don't just straight away go, miss, you know, But have you actually maybe looked online? Have you asked a friend three different ways before you get to me and if you can't solve it before that, then definitely come to me and I'll either be able to assist or help you to solve it. But I think that kind of problem solving ability is really honed in a self-directed learning environment

Su Temlett

Because they're learning two things in the process, right? They're both getting the answer if they get it, but also learning different ways. You know, you mentioned a couple there, Look it up online. Ask a friend. But if you're making it three before me is you say that it kind of the student has to think outside the box and they, like, want various ways. Can I go about getting this? They are learning those two skills we're learning the content and learning the skill.

Su Temlett

I think if you take a student's journey into university, they're not going to be able to just message their professor and expect an answer there and then, you know, it doesn't work in the same way

Simon Hennessy

Sometimes, we'll never get an answer.

Simon Hennessy

You might get one several days later. So I think being able to be resourceful and having those skills taught from way down from you primary years and then kept being revisited all the way through the senior years is going to just help you through any sort of further education path or into the workforce. You know you can't, It's the same at work. You can't just constantly be tapping your boss on the shoulder for questions. You've got to show some initiative, some sort of problem solving ability before you get to that point of I really need help now

Su Temlett

Because you're right. That is the scale that was going to carry so much waste later in life. Let's get technical for a minute, I wanna talk about instructional design models because obviously they're a big part of self directed learning the thinking around it. So could you dive into some instructional design models that a teacher can use to bring self directed learning into their classroom?

Su Temlett

Yes,  I've seen and had experience with integrated curriculum units. So where a number of subjects worked together to plan a term or a year it depends on what the school's direction is. But looking at say doing English, history and science altogether and so you would not believe the amount of planning behind the scenes that is required terms in advance to deliver something like that to make sure that all the outcomes or the syllabus content points are covered off while students are then going through their self directed and often things like that are then provided with sort of a matrix kind of types of activities that students can choose can delve into. Sometimes they'll be with different points so you can add differentiation if you've got kids who are weaker in your class, you tell them they only need to get a certain amount of points. If you're stretching students, they would go for a higher amount of points. But they direct their learning through that matrix of activities. But then again, as a teacher, you've got to make sure that whatever path they might choose, they're still ticking off all those points of the syllabus. So a bit of a balance. So that's kind of like an integrated curriculum one,  there's massive interest in project-based learning, so where they're learning through doing a project. But that's often more covered in sort of like more hands on subjects. That's actually like the primary years model in the Middle Years Programme Primary years programme Sorry PYP  and MYP, which leads into the IB and they are focusing more on inquiry learning so inquiry alone is huge in a lot of junior schools and then, unfortunately, what seems to happen is the transition into senior school, and it's either only touched on briefly or never visited again. So they've got all these skills and inquiry and kids in sort of year six got this sweet of skills about being really resilient about being able to solve problems, loads of really positive skills and then they sort of lie dormant. I guess I spoke to, I was on a training course down in Canberra last year where Kath Murdoch, who's a big guru inquiry learning she was presenting to the primary school's down in Canberra and I went as a representative of a senior school, but it was still really relevant, and I asked that exact question. You know what happens when they don't do inquiry units in senior school, and she said everybody in the room because there was only two other high school teachers. Everybody in the room would hope that those skills just lie dormant. You know, they're not. They're not forgotten about Yeah, but they're still there. But they all found it's such a shame that after years of primary schools value in these skills and teaching them that they're not then translated into being more valued in senior school, I think it's the content that drives that. People are almost afraid to do kind of self-directed inquiry units, that sort of thing because of the content, but it is possible with lots of planning.

Simon Hennessy

Yeah, kind of hammers home the point that self directed models really it's about maintaining them over time because, you know, the benefits are exponential. They grow the further you go down the road on a particular model or a particular style of it. So keeping it up makes such a difference.

Su Temlett

I think what's good there is if a school sort of almost hangs a hat on a model so if your a PYP school in the junior school. But you're not doing Middle Years programme in the senior school. Still think about where could you include elements of inquiry and have, like, one per term not per subject, but not you know, like, say, one term, do an English inquiry unit the next term do a maths inquiry unit so that the skills are continuing rather than being just never touched, you know, So I think it's about value in the skills and then choose in to sort of hang your hat on a particular style, that value we'll keep those skills go in. I think the difficulty for teachers is there are so many different instructional design models out there.

Simon Hennessy

It's kind of, a doubled-edge sword right because in one sense, the more choice you have the feeling of oh well, I can find the right one. But then, on the flip side of that, there's only so many things you can try and people can even be daunted and put off by having all that.

Su Temlett

Exactly, so do you do a PBL Project-based learning model design strategy for a unit? But then you might not be very good at it, so you don't do it again. Where's as if you as school if you sort of say, Yeah, we value project based learning and we're going to train you up in how to deliver a unit of project based learning for every kid for every class at some point in the year. Then you'll get better and better at it year on year. But I think where teachers is sort of doing it almost unsupported, you know, just tinkering around with it, and then they perhaps don't have the best experience of it. And so they think, oh the kids went wild during that unit. I'm never doing that again. You know, when it wasn't me, leading behaviour changed etcetera. Well, behaviour is going to change because kids for the first time are exploring what it looks like to be self-directed and they won't get better overnight, but the next time you do it they'll understand and get better each time. So there's some of it is about exposure in terms of behaviour and things like that.

Simon Hennessy

It makes a lot of sense. And I mean, one thing that I want to talk about, which is not at all mutually exclusive from that is the idea of resources, that kind of tie in and support certain models because, you know, there's such an important overlap between the two things. To rely on a teacher, to implement a model entirely on their own would be very difficult. But I guess what kind of resource is are out there to kind of help bring self-directed learning. What should they look like? What was the right resource do

Su Temlett

Well, I think the best resources that teachers have are teachers themselves, so being a team of teachers, even if it's just two of you getting together and saying we'd like to do a different experience for our class for this term, and being a resource, you know, book a room that can be divided, you know, put your two classes together or five classes together if it's across a grade or whatever and actually be a resource for each other. What is that you're going to create, work on who's going to deliver certain workshops? You know where you need to have a particular periods of talk content, that sort of thing, you know, and then create resources that the students can use so that might look like a playlist of activities that provide the students with sort of options, sort of a path of choice through them, I mentioned earlier, like a matrix card for point-based activities for differentiation, it could look like an online course that you've built in your learning management system, where things like different pathways are opened two different students in almost like a mastery paths design say they go a certain way they get access to different resources and if they choose a different way, and you can do that within the context of an  LMS It might be things like in your Matrix card you're plugging in other activities like here's some YouTube resources. Here's some Atomi videos, his different things that you are you're sort of curating together that a student can choose to look. at or not look at or they could find their own, but you sort of providing them with the guide of what it is the guide on the site?

Simon Hennessy

And even if they're not looking at that, it shows them what the kind of thing they should be looking for looks like.

Su Temlett

Yes. So it's not totally hands-off free for all our topic today is the Roman Empire. Find out about it. It's not like that, it's massively planned and prepped behind the scenes on, I think, creating a team of teachers to do that's certainly the models that I've seen being most successful, collective teacher efficacy is huge on hearty scale of desire zone of desired effects. So being together as a team hugely important

Simon Hennessy

Working together to bring it in absolutely. I mean another thing that kind of caught my attention, so there was a story I was reading about Scougall the big picture academy in Illawarra. Um, I saying that right, Yeah, I'm not a native Australian, you know, on the other side of the world, but yes, where they've taken initiative to make students education entirely self-directed and have done away with exams altogether and it sort of got me thinking about, you know, a lot of us would hear that and think that something like that is very radical. But I guess where do you think the balance should fall between a student's education being self directed onand the more kind of curriculum based exam-style dictated, This is what you need to do

Su Temlett

I'm always going to come out somewhere in the middle of things with these questions, I really like variety in teaching and I think it's absolutely great of your school has chosen away, and that's the way that the school the direction is going and everybody is trained up really well in hard to deliver that you've got to get buy in from the teachers there are more than just a sort of surface level. They've got to believe that style of pedagogy and own it as well for that to be really successful but done well, I absolutely love self-directed learning. I think it promotes so many skills in young people andis very, very interesting as a teacher as well, but don't in a haphazard way without all that planning without all that kind of direction. It can be a real time-waster for students where they look really busy. But they aren't. You know, they're just being kept busy. They're not necessarily doing any deep learning so  I think it's really important to make sure that if you're going to go on a certain pathway, you've got enough kind of instructional time for the teachers behind the scenes to facilitate that. But I think for me and as I think about my own child going through school, I'd love to see him be now to do a self-directed unit at least once per stage per subject, you know. So there's at least a history self directed unit and in stage foor there's a least one in stage five and even in Stage six there's one, and I think that's where people it's almost like a funnel that they start very positively in junior school in primary school, with lots of sort of self directed or inquiry on and then, as the content gets, increases, increases, increases and teachers stress levels increase because of the HSC looming schools become less and less self-directed. The higher up the score you go, which then you get to sort of year 11 and 12. And it's pretty much sage on the stage delivery,

Simon Hennessy

which is almost ironic, considering the fact that as soon as they're out of school, it's those skills learned in primary school that will become the most valuable

Su Temlett

So I think it's about sort of the planning stage and teachers having the confidence in Stage six to still do that and one of my most successful modules of self-directed learning was with Stage six. And I did it with a good friend of mine, Hannah Gearhart, who's the head of English now up in one of the schools in the Central Coast, and her and I put together a unit on Module B, which was Hamlet text at the time, and it was based on an academic paper that I'd read from the States, which was a university model where there was essentially a seed paper. Every student had to write, had to sow a seed about something they find interesting about Hamlet, anything at all. And they would find something that they thought they identified with rather than giving a one size fits all questioned for them all to answer. And then in the lesson times, what we did was allow them time within groups, which was marked but to explore their particular seed. And so we had questions like I had a kid still in contact with the hay, was mad on communism and so he's actually in Russia now, he was absolutely fascinated with communism. So he did his seed paper on the political landscape of Hamlet and the nature of the conflicts within the play. And he entitled it 'pacifism and violence in Hamlet' and It just was amazing what he looked at in terms of the pacifist elements of the text, and I would never have set that in a million years. But to see his interest still within a text was just really unique. And he learned all of the text. He still knew it all, but through his own line of inquiry. And we had 60 students that year who did their own line of inquiry through Hamlet when we got the wrapped package at the end of the year about the HSC results and we analyse what was the best unit in terms of the exam paper writing module B was far ahead of anything else in their exam results, and it was because they actually really enjoyed that text because we did it in a way that they discovered the text with.

Simon Hennessy

They've got to find their particular area of interest for this

Su Temlett

We did it year in on your out and we've got better at it. Like to kick it off what we then did to kick the program because we got Bell Shakespearean in, to lead a whole day of Hamlet workshops. So they actually acted some bits of it out and they understood, I guess, the drama side of it and then got into the seed papers but it was really, really interesting

Simon Hennessy

I wish I had been in that class

Su Temlett

There's stuff that I'd never seen in Hamlet and every year I was just like, wow, this is amazing, but that was stage six Module B lots of pressure and still, they got through everything and were able to answer really well in the HSC about that text, because in module B, the main requirement is you know the text inside out. And so they did. But through their own lines of inquiry.

Simon Hennessy

Yeah, that's amazing because it's, you know, it's It's almost like three things it wants. It's the scale of putting their own initiative into action. It is preparing for the exam, and it's also dealing with loads of different aspect ofthe the content, as opposed to just learning off one or two set essays.

Su Temlett

Or in terms of just sitting as a class reading scene by scene and explaining what that means while they still read the text, they just ready under their terms and for their things

Simon Hennessy

And also shoutout to you Su for managing to get Hamlet into the podcast

Su Temlett

If you're following at home, you can have a bingo card.

Simon Hennessy

It will be full very quickly. So I guess the last thing I wanted to ask a sort of a two sided question and it's this idea of for wanting a better word selling self directed learning to the students and getting them on side. And I wanted to you to maybe talk quickly about first of all, what teachers can do to make that happen. To get students to buy in and second of all how schools on a broader macro-level can support their teachers in doing so?

Su Temlett

I think so, for both of them, our most huge believer in strategic planning, like I just love creating a five year plan for things and when I was in the classroom or leading a director level. Having a strategic plan for what the students are going to do or what the teachers are going to do is hugely important. So when you're trying to bring self directed learning in and it is a school-wide initiative, you need to inform the students and the parents why you're doing it. You know, saying with anything you want to blend learning, you want to flipped learning. You want to do any type of learning that is different to sage on the stage, which parents are very familiar with. You need to actually educate the students and their parents and why you're doing it So if you start actually sort of saying to the students were going to look at this different model of teaching for a term or forever, whatever it is that you decide on. The reason is that these skills will be harnessed by this type of learning. And we value those skills in you and you look at sort of like reports where employers showing how much they value those sorts of skills and there's loads of them are in common sense media. But then you talk about by learning in this way and not just relying on the teachers, you're going to be going to be set for life. You're going to be set up with these skills for the future. And so go through that and then actually explain what this is going to look like. It's going to look like you come into class and 24 of you are going to be doing different things. Sometimes you might come together for a workshop. Sometimes you actually might not be in your class. You might be loads of classes together if you're going to do it more of an integrated grade-based model. But explain to them what is the reasoning behind it is on what your behavioural expectations are of them doing it as well and have a parent information session too on then, as you do the rollout with the teachers work a year ahead. So you want to produce self directed learning for 2021. Then you spend in 2020 educating the teachers around what that looks like changing whichever programmes it is on building the resources around it. I think with enough lead-in time, then you launch and then you've got everybody on the same page, you know, go externally. Look at other schools who are doing it like Melbourne Girls Grammar have got a fantastic programme of self directed learning that they started in you nine and they collapse the timetable. I think it's now across 9,10&11 They were rolling it out year on year. But students there they've got an academic coach, a wellness coach in a fitness coach and they're actually from year nine onwards they're allowed to sort of ping in and out of school. They've got, like, a little signing card and you know, like on the opal cards where you sort of tick yourself in and out of the campus kind of thing and within their times that they're not being taught. They have to get it on with their self directed learning from those teaching times. But they also have to have an appointment. I think its weekly or fortnightly with each one of those coaches. So the academic coach sits down with them and ask them how they're doing. How they're managing their workload, what things are they're working on, etcetera. Their fitness coach is what sessions have you booked into this term so that all the like It's just phenomenal what they have put together in terms of supporting that self directed learning. But that's in the whole school level, and the timetable has been reflected. You know, he's been collapsed to reflect that. So from a planning point of view as a staff on an executive level, it might look like re shape in the structure of the day. You know, like like they've done to actually not have as many teaching periods because in that it's not free time. But in that non teaching time, that's where your self directed learning is going on. So I think preparation is the key to success you've got to give teachers time and great professional learning to do it really well. And then once you've done an iteration reflect, evaluate and prepare for the next situation

Simon Hennessy

and it does sound like it requires just from those examples which do saying really awesome a lot of by and but like, the more you put in the more you get out

Su Temlett

It cannot be winged, It just can't, which is kind of like almost opposite to how people might think of it because you're not delivering, you're not doing a great big lesson presentation. You're not doing a lecture. Whatever. Yeah, that misconception. But it cannot be winged to do it. Well, it has to be huge, like the iceberg metaphor. You know what has happened underneath the surface to get to those points of self-directed learning

Simon Hennessy

On every level, from the top down, all the way down to educating the students on the education that they're going to be getting

Su Temlett

And what you expect on, you know, like I said, students will get better with each iteration of it as well. But if they've come up with the skills from the primary school, if you've got a K to 12 school and they've come up with that type of learning from the primary school. You just following it on. You start in year seven. I wouldn't do a whole school at once, but starting your seven follow on from what they did in your six, then those kids never lose that skill into year eight. So roll it out

Simon Hennessy

Awesome, alrighty well that wraps us up for self-directed learning. Before we go very quickly, we're gonna get sues hot tip for all those teachers out there. Just a little bit of advice. Can be serious, can be jokey doesn't even really have to have anything to do with education. Just quick tip from Sue.

Su Temlett

It is actually based on self directed learning today. And I just want to encourage teachers not to let the contents scare you into not doing something. So don't get into the funnel response of its year 11 and 12. I can't do it. I've got to get through so much syllabus, like be prepared even in the 11 and 12 to take a risk. Because when myself and my colleagues were in the years and years that we did the Hamlet seed paper and then we did it in your 11 as well. It was by far the most enjoyable time of our teaching. So don't be afraid and plan it well, but take a risk. Don't let the content scare you.

Simon Hennessy

No risk, no reward. You heard it hear first teachers listen up. Already, well, that's all we have for today. Looking forward to having you back next time for whatever crazy topic we land on in the world of education. In the meantime, check us out at Getatomi.com. It's goodbye from Su and goodbye from me.